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Free as in Freedom
March 20, 2019
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0x63: Can Anyone Live in Full Software Freedom Today? (Part IV)
Summary
In their final installment regarding their joint keynote at FOSDEM 2019, entitled: Can Anyone Live in Full Software Freedom Today?: Confessions of Activists Who Try But Fail to Avoid Proprietary Software, you listeners can hear the final product — a recording of the actual FOSDEM keynote. Afterwards, Karen and Bradley compare notes on what went wrong and what went right (but mostly what went wrong) during the talk.
This show was released on Wednesday 20 March 2019; its running time is 01:10:28.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:00:35)
Bradley and Karen talk logistics of how the talk is embedded in the audio.
Segment 1 (00:04:14)
The audio in this segment taken directly from the video of Karen and Bradley's FOSDEM 2019 opening keynote, entitled Can Anyone Live in Full Software Freedom Today? Confessions of Activists Who Try But Fail to Avoid Proprietary Software, which was given . If you'd rather watch the video, you can do so via FSODEM's video site in either webm format or in mp4 format.
Segment 2 (00:46:01)
- Karen mentioned “time shifting”, which was permitted for the public, despite accusations of copyright infringement, in the Betamax case. (55:10)
Segment 3 (01:05:31)
Karen and Bradley mention that the next episode will be an interview with Dan Lynch recorded at CopyleftConf 2019.
March 12, 2019
0x62: Can Anyone Live in Full Software Freedom Today? (Part III)
Summary
Bradley and Karen have the last pre-talk installment of discussing the preparation for their joint keynote at FOSDEM 2019, entitled: Can Anyone Live in Full Software Freedom Today?: Confessions of Activists Who Try But Fail to Avoid Proprietary Software. This episode is the third of three episodes where Bradley and Karen record their preparation conversations for this keynote address. In this particular episode, they discuss the issue of letting others use proprietary software on your behalf, the problem of relying too much on that, and then finish up discussing with how they'll include this material into the final talk.
This show was released on Tuesday 12 March 2019; its running time is 00:28:00.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:34)
- Karen discussed the idea of a shabbos goy, and the analogy between that and allowing other people use proprietary on your behalf. (02:58)
- Bradley and Karen discussed that it is equally abhorrent to ask someone else to use proprietary software for you as it is to use yourself, since someone's software freedom is compromised in any event (06:58)
- Bradley mentioned that he had previously applied to serve on the USA's Internal Revenue Service (IRS)'s Electronic Tax Administration Advisory Committee (ETAAC). Bradley mentioned how sadly the IRS typically accepts people from proprietary software companies like Intuit but has to his knowledge never accepted anyone involved in FOSS software for IRS form preparation (10:02)
- Bradley mentioned the Free Software PDF fill-in tools evince and flpsed (12:24)
- Karen stated that Conservancy's policy is that:
We care so much about software freedom that we would rather use proprietary software than have someone else lose their software freedom
. (15:20) - Karen mentioned that her Linux Conf Australia 2019, Right to Not Broadcast, which you can view online. (22:18)
Segment 1 (23:15)
- Bradley mentioned the A-Team line, “I love it when a plan comes together”. (23:23)
- Bradley and Karen generally discuss the final plans for incorporating this material into the keynote
February 19, 2019
0x61: Can Anyone Live in Full Software Freedom Today? (Part II)
Summary
Bradley and Karen continue the process of preparing their joint keynote at FOSDEM 2019, entitled: Can Anyone Live in Full Software Freedom Today?: Confessions of Activists Who Try But Fail to Avoid Proprietary Software. This episode is the second of three episodes where Bradley and Karen record their preparation conversations for this keynote address. In this particular episode, they discuss the golden age in history when they used very little proprietary software, and then discuss the beginning of their personal Dark Ages of using some proprietary software.
This show was released on Tuesday 19 February 2019; its running time is 00:35:23.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:35)
- Bradley mentioned The Who's destruction of their instruments and his discomfort with it in relation to computers. (06:10)
- Bradley and Karen mentioned their long-time use of the HTC Dream (07:30)
- Bradley mentioned that he helped start the Replicant project, but his primary contribution was its name. (08:24)
Segment 1 (12:34)
- Karen mentioned the pinball machine that she owns. (12:50)
- Bradley mentioned the Dead Kennedys album, Give Me Convenience or Give Me Death. (25:10)
- Karen and Bradley discuss proprietary Javascript. (28:20)
- This is the screen you get if you attempt to use Google maps without Javascript. (28:45) Karen was wrong about this image no longer appearing. The image linked to here is from the day before our FOSDEM keynote was delivered. (29:55)
- Bradley and Karen recorded this episode while on site at LinuxConf Australia 2019. They had dinner the night this was recorded at a restaurant called, Dux Dine in Christchurch, NZ. There were, in fact, ducks dining at Dux Dine. (35:07)
January 13, 2019
0x60: Can Anyone Live in Full Software Freedom Today? (Part I)
Summary
Bradley and Karen pull back the curtain and begin the process of preparing their joint keynote at FOSDEM 2019, entitled: Can Anyone Live in Full Software Freedom Today?: Confessions of Activists Who Try But Fail to Avoid Proprietary Software. This episode is the first of multiple episodes where Bradley and Karen record their preparation conversations for this keynote address.
This show was released on Sunday 13 January 2019; its running time is 00:36:37.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:36)
Bradley and Karen discuss the plan to do prep for their FOSDEM keynote “on air” as part of FaiF broadcasts.Segment 1 (07:13)
- Bradley read out the abstract from Bradley and Karen's keynote, Can Anyone Live in Full Software Freedom Today? Confessions of Activists Who Try But Fail to Avoid Proprietary Software at FOSDEM 2019. (circa 10:00)
- This started for Bradley with the HTC Dream, and Karen's struggle started with her heart device (10:42)
- Bradley and Karen discussed how they plan to organize their FOSDEM 2019 joint keynote.
- Bradley mentioned that if Karen and Bradley recorded an episode of the two of them reading Lorem Ipsum that listeners would likely still listen. Karen disagreed. (33:05)
September 21, 2016
0x5D: Conference Report, 1st Half of 2016
Summary
Bradley and Karen discuss Conservancy's conference trips and presentations during the first half of 2016.
This show was released on Wednesday 21 September 2016; its running time is 00:53:28.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:38)
- Bradley attended and spoke at FOSDEM 2016 and LinuxConf Australia 2016 (03:10)
- Bradley and Karen co-coordinated the FOSDEM 2016 Legal and Policy Issues DevRoom (04:43)
- Tom Marble did an interview-format discussion with Richard M. Stallman at FOSDEM 2016 (04:55)
- Bradley gave two talks at FOSDEM 2016, Copyleft For the Next Decade: A Comprehensive Plan for the GPL and A Beautiful Build: Releasing Linux Source Correctly (06:40)
- Richard Fontana gave a talk at FOSDEM 2016 entitled Open source foundations: threat or menace? (08:15)
- The Doge
take on FOSDEM 2016 Legal and Policy Issues DevRoom was
Much politics. Many peoples.
(11:00) - There was a Conservancy Supporter event at the Novotel Grand Place in Brussels at FOSDEM 2016. (14:00)
- Bradley gave a talk at LCA 2016. (15:20)
- Karen gave the closing keynote at LibrePlanet 2016, entitled Companies, free software, and you . (16:54)
- Karen Sandler gave a talk at the Linux Foundation's Embedded Linux Conference 2016 entitled Tales of Enforcement (27:00)
- Karen gave a talk at at the Postgres Conference in New York. (34:26)
- Bradley and Karen were both on a panels at OSCON. (35:00)
- Bradley and Karen flipped burgers (vegan ones and otherwise) at the OSCON 2016 party. (39:30)
- Bradley gave a keynote at OSS 2016. (45:05)
- Bradley spoke at two user groups in Norway as well. He hasn't made the blog post he mentioned yet, but plans to. (45:50)
- Karen mentioned Episode 0x4A which discussed the OpenStack CLA debate. (50:50)
December 24, 2014
0x52: Legal Issues from a Radical Community Angle
Summary
Bradley and Karen play and discuss
Stefano Zacchiroli's talk entitled Legal issues from a radical community angle that he gave 12:00 European/Central time on Sunday 2 February 2014 at FOSDEM 2014.
This show was released on Wednesday 24 December 2014; its running time is 01:04:50.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:00:35)
Karen and Bradley introduce the talk.
Segment 1 (00:02:38)
Stefano Zacchiroli's talk entitled Legal issues from a radical community angle . You can watch the video instead of listening to our audio and/or follow along with Zach's slides.
Segment 2 (00:53:17)
- Please note: Bradley and Karen recorded these comments before the init system coupling referendum completed, which is why Karen and Bradley don't discuss it. However, their comments about the Debian democratic process are highly relevant to the recent vote. Also, Bradley discussed his views on that specific issue as a guest co-host on Linux Outlaws, Episode 368.
- Bradley and Karen discussed SPI as Debian's fiscal sponsor and used a few terms like grantor/grantee (01:01:20)
December 11, 2014
0x51: Why Licenses Requiring Use of Trademarks are Non-Free
Summary
Bradley and Karen play and discuss Pam Chestek's talk entitled Why Licenses Requiring Use of Trademarks are Non-Free that she gave on Sunday 2 February 2014 at FOSDEM 2014.
This show was released on Thursday 11 December 2014; its running time is 01:10:00.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:00:34)
- You can donate now to send Producer Dan Lynch to a Free Software conference. Donations will be made to Conservancy and any proceeds raised beyond the amount needed to send Dan to a conference will support Conservancy generally. (05:30)
- Dan will of course need to follow Conservancy's travel policy since Conservancy will fund his travel. (06:50)
- Bradley discussed the backstory on the Groupon attempt to steal GNOME's name. GNOME Foundation had to go public to raise funds to fight Groupon (10:05)
Segment 1 (00:13:26)
Pam Chestek gives a talk entitled Why Licenses Requiring Use of Trademarks are Non-Free. You can watch the video instead of listening to our audio and follow along with Pam's slides.
Segment 2 (01:00:37)
- Bradley mentioned Pam's talk from the previous year, which was played on 0x3C. (01:01:32)
- Bradley mentioned that GPLv3§7 allows for removal of additional restrictions that abuse that clause of GPLv3. (01:04:24)
July 18, 2014
0x49: Why Free Software Phone Doesn't Exist
Summary
Bradley and Karen discuss the talk, Why the free software phone doesn't exist by Aaron Williamson given at FOSDEM 2013 on Sunday 3 February 2013.
This show was released on Friday 18 July 2014; its running time is 01:08:30.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:37)
Bradley and Karen introduce the talk.
Segment 1 (04:06)
Aaron's slides area available.
Segment 2 (56:41)
- Bradley mentioned dakota imaging where he used to work. (1:02:15) dacotag imaging
- Karen mentioned Aaron's OSCON 2010 talk (but we incorrectly said it was 2009). (1:04:35)
October 17, 2013
0x43: State of the GNUnion
Summary
Karen and Bradley listen to and discuss John Sullivan's talk from FOSDEM 2013, entitled State of the GNUnion.
This show was released on Thursday 17 October 2013; its running time is 01:19:37.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:00:33)
Karen and Bradley introduce the talk.
Segment 1 (00:01:58)
The slides for John's talk are available, and the source of those slides is available too.
Segment 1 (00:54:31)
- Bradley mentioned RMS' essay, Who Does That Server Really Serve? (01:08:55)
Segment 2 (01:14:53)
Private Internet Access became a new GNOME Advisory Board Member.
July 17, 2013
Episode 0x3F: FOSDEM 2013 - AGPLv3 Panel Discussion
Summary
Karen and Bradley listen to and discuss The panel discussion on the GNU Affero General Public License from FOSDEM 2013.
This show was released on Wednesday 17 July 2013; its running time is 01:28:47.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:00:38)
- Bradley asked for donations again to Conservancy's NPO accounting software campaign and Karen asked for donations to GNOME's Privacy Campaign.
Segment 1 (00:04:50)
This is the Panel Discussion: GNU Affero General Public License, version 3 from FOSDEM 2013. The speakers, in the order their voices are heard, are Tom Marble (introduction), Richard Fontana (moderator), Bradley M. Kuhn, Eileen Evans, and Christopher Allan Webber.
Segment 2 (01:06:47)
- Bradley mentioned the phrase
Give me convenience or give me death
, which is from a title of the Dead Kennedys album he suggested applied to the selection of proprietary software (01:10:10) - Bradley mentioned RMS' recent update to his Who does that server really serve? essay. (01:11:30)
- Bradley mentioned his blog post on doing VoIP encryption with Free Software. (01:14:04)
- Bradley mentioned his talk entitled The Affero GPLv3: Why It Exists & Who It's For? at the Southern California Linux Expo 11x. The slides are available and the sources for the slides are available. (01:17:30)
June 13, 2013
0x3E: Mozilla - Licensing in the Trenches
Summary
Karen and Bradley listen to and discuss Gervase Markham's talk from FOSDEM 2013, entitled Mozilla: Licensing In The Trenches.
This show was released on Thursday 13 June 2013; its running time is 01:11:55.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:00:34)
- Bradley encouraged listeners to Conservancy's campaign for non-profit accounting software. (02:10)
- Bradley mentioned his 2009 blog post encouraging people to donate to Free Software charities (02:50)
- Karen asked people to donate to the GNOME Foundation privacy campaign (04:11)
Segment 1 (00:04:57)
Gerv's slides from his FOSDEM 2013 talk can be downloaded from FOSDEM's website.
Segment 2 (00:51:48)
Bradley and Karen discuss Gerv's talk.
May 7, 2013
0x3C: FOSDEM 2013: How to Share a Trademark
Summary
Karen and Bradley listen to and discuss Pamela Chestek's talk from FOSDEM 2013, entitled How to Share a Trademark.
This show was released on Tuesday 7 May 2013; its running time is 01:23:47.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:00:33)
Karen and Bradley introduce the talk.
Segment 0 (00:02:05)
Pam gave us slides, but it's all in one big SVG.
Segment 2 (00:55:10)
- The talk that Bradley mentioned was this talk that Karen gave at Linux Foundation Collaboration Summit 2012; he was unable to find a recording. (57:04)
- Note that most of the time the word
source
was used in the talk and Karen's comments, it meansorigin
, notsource code
. (01:05:55) - Bradley mentioned this Planet Money story about the 5¢ coke. (01:21:37)
April 11, 2013
Episode 0x3B: FOSDEM 2013: Should We Embrace App Stores?
Summary
Karen and Bradley listen to and discuss Simon Phipps' and Amanda Brock's talk from FOSDEM 2013, entitled Should We Embrace App Stores?.
This show was released on Thursday 11 April 2013; its running time is 01:11:25.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:00:33)
Karen and Bradley introduce the talk.
Segment 1 (00:03:03)
- Simon and Amanda used no slides during their talk.
- Amanda misquotes Bradley at 07:30. Bradley said:
An unenforced copyleft is the moral equivalent of a permissive license
, not that you give a license automatically not by enforcing. You can listen to FaiF Episode 0x38 to verify.
Segment 1 (00:49:35)
Bradley and Karen discuss the talk.
April 3, 2013
Episode 0x3A: FOSDEM 2013: FOSS Code Goes In And Never Comes Out
Summary
Karen and Bradley listen to and discuss Gabriel Holloway's talk from FOSDEM 2013, entitled FOSS code goes in and never comes out: The Challenge of Sandboxed Proprietary Cloud Services.
This show was released on Wednesday 3 April 2013; its running time is 01:24:33.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:00:33)
Karen and Bradley introduce the talk.
Segment 1 (00:05:48)
The speaker's that you hear are:
- Gabriel Holloway, who gives the talk
- Till Jaeger asks the first question.
- A few other questions are asked, but we're unsure who the speakers are.
- Tom Marble, asks a question later.
Unfortunately, Gabe didn't provide us with slides.
Segment 2 (00:52:25)
- Bradley mentioned the Berne Convention on Copyright. (01:07:19)
- Karen mentioned Cooper Union and how they are in danger of running out of money for their full tuition scholarships. (01:10:00)
- Bradley looked but couldn't find the NPR story about terms of use. (01:19:37)
March 26, 2013
Episode 0x39: FOSDEM 2013: What is a Derivative Work under European Copyright Law?
Summary
Karen and Bradley listen to and discuss Till Jaeger's talk from FOSDEM 2013, entitled What is a derivative work under European Copyright Law?.
This show was released on Tuesday 26 March 2013; its running time is 01:13:07.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:00:31)
Karen and Bradley introduce the talk.
Segment 2 (00:02:41)
The speaker's that you hear are:
- Tom Marble, introduces the talk, and asks one of the questions.
- Till Jaeger, who gives the talk
The slides for Till Jaeger's talk are available.
Segment 2 (00:49:11)
- Bradley and Karen discuss Till's talk.
- Clarence
Thomas spoke the first time in the Supreme Court. Bradley said that
he said
it did not
, but apparently he actually saidhe did not
. (59:49) - Bradley scanned
in his Brussels airport train ticket that had his notes on it, where
you can read
noa push caa
. (01:06:40) - Bradley mentioned the phrase Elvis has left the building. (01:07:15)
July 17, 2012
Episode 0x2E: FOSDEM 2012: Linksvayer on Public Policy & CC 4.0
Summary
Karen and Bradley play and discuss Mike Linksvayer's FOSDEM 2012 talk, Creative Commons 4.0 licenses and other opportunities for FLOSS/free culture legal/policy intersections from the FOSDEM 2012 Legal and Policy Issues DevRoom.
This show was released on Tuesday 17 July 2012; its running time is 00:59:30.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:38)
Bradley and Karen suggest that you use the slides below when listening to Mike's talk.
Segment 1 (05:51)
Mike Linksvayer's slides for this talk are available in PDF format and in ODP format.
Segment 2 (33:43)
Segment 3 (34:25)
A special licensing message from Mike Linksvayer.
Segment 4 (35:09)
- Karen mentioned Bradley's favorite movie, It's a Wonderful Life.
- Bradley mentioned Asheesh Laroia, who appears to never blogged about his CC/credit-card-thief freenode confusion story. (48:00)
- Bradley mentioned Fontana's Copyleft.next project . (50:00)
- Bradley mentioned the ST:TNG
episode, Unification,
Part II, although he kept calling it
Reunification
during the episode. Please don't write in to complain; he realized the error after recording. (54:39)
June 19, 2012
0x2C: FOSDEM 2012: Laurent's Open Licences before European Courts
Summary
Karen and Bradley play and discuss Philippe Laurent's FOSDEM 2012 talk, Open Licences before European Courts from the FOSDEM 2012 Legal and Policy Issues DevRoom.
This show was released on Tuesday 19 June 2012; its running time is 00:44:07.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:36)
Karen and Bradley mention there is one talk remaining after this one from the FOSDEM 2012 Legal and Policy Issues DevRoom.
Segment 1 (03:04)
Philippe's slides are available from faif.us. Note: the slides are licensed differently than the show: they are CC-By-SA-3.0-Unported (rather than -USA).
Segment 2 (32:22)
- Bradley mentioned FSF France's involvement with the AFPA case. (37:30)
May 8, 2012
0x28: FOSDEM 2012: Loic Dachary
Summary
Karen and Bradley play and discuss Loïc Dachary's FOSDEM 2012 talk, Can for-profit companies enforce copyleft without becoming corrupt like MySQL AB? from the FOSDEM 2012 Legal and Policy Issues DevRoom.
This show was released on Tuesday 8 May 2012; its running time is 00:56:01.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:35)
Bradley and Karen discuss FOSDEM again.
Segment 1 (10:10)
Unfortunately, we don't have Loïc's slides.
Segment 2 (32:03)
Bradley and Karen comment on Loïc's talk.
April 25, 2012
0x27: FOSDEM 2012: Randal's Legal Hygiene
Summary
Karen and Bradley play and discuss Allison Randal's FOSDEM 2012 talk, FLOSSing for Good Legal Hygiene: Stories from the Trenches from the FOSDEM 2012 Legal and Policy Issues DevRoom.
This show was released on Wednesday 25 April 2012; its running time is 01:04:56.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:35)
Bradley talked about the #faif IRC conversation regarding hot milk recipe and its copyright. (01:54)
Segment 1 (07:10)
Allison's slides are available from faif.us.
Segment 2 (35:00)
- Karen and Bradley discussed the insanely complicated poster that Eclipse developers have to put on their walls to know how to accept patches (37:40)
- RMS's GNU Project essay talks about the Qt problem. (39:16)
- Bradley mentioned Chris Hertel's appearance on Linux Outlaws.(44:25)
- Karen mentioned The Scientific American article entitled Secret Computer Code Threatens Science. (54:00)
- Bradley mentioned Roland McGrath (56:44)
April 13, 2012
0x26: FOSDEM 2012: Meeks on Copyright Assignment
Summary
Karen and Bradley play and discuss Michael Meeks's FOSDEM 2012 talk, Risks and Benefits of Copyright Assignment from the FOSDEM 2012 Legal and Policy Issues DevRoom.
This show was released on Friday 13 April 2012; its running time is 00:47:19.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:35)
Bradley and Karen introduce Michael's talk.
Segment 1 (01:56)
Michael's slides are available from faif.us and from his blog post on the talk.
Segment 2 (26:47)
- Bradley mentioned GNU Mediagoblin as an example of a true upstream multi-copyright-holder AGPLv3'd project. (28:10)
- Bradley mentioned that LibreOffice is “wealthy” as well by Michael Meeks standards, given their successful fundraisers. (29:38)
- Bradley mentioned the Desktop Summit panel that he and Michael were on and Karen moderated. (34:06)
- Bradley and Michael co-authored (with Vincent Untz) the GNOME Copyright Assignment Guidelines. (35:30)
- FSF was previously supportive of MySQL AB back in 2002, but Michael also used to support the Sun JCA. (38:20)
March 13, 2012
0x24: App Store Panel
Summary
Karen and Bradley play and discuss Panel on Application Stores, moderated by Richard Fontana, with Giovanni Battista Gallus, Bradley M. Kuhn, and Hugo Roy from the FOSDEM 2012 Legal and Policy Issues DevRoom.
This show was released on Tuesday 13 March 2012; its running time is 00:47:28.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:34)
Karen and Bradley introduce the panel.
Segment 1 (02:15)
This is the recording of the panel. Some of the questions aren't completely audible, but Dan did a pretty good job boosting it in places.
Segment 2 (35:04)
- Bradley mentioned This American Life, Episode 454, that covered issues of labor that is abused to build our electronics. You can read a transcript or download an mp3 of the audio. (43:27)
February 28, 2012
0x23: Is Copyleft Being Framed?
Summary
Karen and Bradley play and discuss John Sullivan's talk entitled Is Copyleft Being Framed? from the FOSDEM 2012 Legal and Policy Issues DevRoom.
This show was released on Tuesday 28 February 2012; its running time is 00:56:19.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:34)
- Dave Neary wrote an article based on his FOSDEM talk, and we're trying our best to fix the audio and have a FaiFCast of his talk, but it may not be salvagable.
Segment 1 (06:35)
- Follow along with John's slides from his FOSDEM talk.
Segment 1 (37:23)
- John referenced the source Black Duck numbers for which there is no methodology posted (38:30)
- Bradley mentioned Chris DiBona's keynote at OSCON 2010. (39:14)
- John mentioned the FLOSS Mole project in his talk. (42:50)
February 14, 2012
0x22: Elder's Methods of FOSS Activism
Summary
Karen and Bradley play and discuss Ambjörn Elder's talk entitled Methods of FOSS Activism from the FOSDEM 2012 Legal and Policy Issues DevRoom.
This show was released on Tuesday 14 February 2012; its running time is 00:44:44.
Show Notes
Segment 0 (00:35)
Bradley and Karen summarize some of the logistics of FOSDEM.
Segment 1 (08:08)
You can follow along with Ambjörn's slides for his talk while you listen.
Segment 2 (24:04)
- Bradley mentioned Terry Bollinger's report, Use of Free and Open-Source Software (FOSS) in the U.S. Department of Defense. (26:13)
- Karen quoted the USA DoD in her Killed by Code paper. (28:04)
- EFF has engaged lobbyist in the past on some issues. (29:58)
- Bradley mentioned Noam Chomsky's point regarding concision. (35:32)